Dutching

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Dutching

Postby Gavin » Sun Jul 19, 2015 9:27 pm

Over the years, some people have asked me to add Dutching to Cymatic. I do hope to add it eventually but it is still unlikely to be done very soon.

It would be good if a Dutching spreadsheet could be made available in Excel. I think Excel is ideal for that. If anyone does start work on creating a Dutching spreadsheet, please consider uploading a sample spreadsheet for others to experiment with and get the discussion going! Thanks.

Kind regards,

Gavin
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Re: Dutching

Postby adenlark » Mon Jul 20, 2015 8:43 am

Hello Gavin

I have a basic dutching workbook, which I've been using on Betdaq to test out some strategies, but with all the bots and the lack of real liquidity, trading there can be like having having teeth pulled whilst listening to Vogon poetry - or Justin Bieber. Take your pick!

I've made a copy for Cymatic, but it is largely untested, so is intended for use in Demo mode. It features a full odds grid of up to 16 runners, with selections made using checkboxes - not pretty, but a quick and easy way to 'rough out' a workbook, and easy to expand/modify. I am providing the workbook 'as-is' for the Cymatic community to use, abuse and improve upon.

Warning! Back and Lay bets can be submitted from the same worksheet. There is no safety net if you click the wrong checkbox. Deselect all checkboxes before changing markets!

As there are no notes in the workbook, I'll include them here. The basic function is similar to the dutching feature included in some API software. Select your desired odds from the grid, adjust total stake and select BACK or LAY. Your bets will be submitted instantly at the odds and stakes shown in column J. For the brave, or those who want to dutch 'on the fly' in volatile markets, first select the back or lay options and total stake. The grid will now be 'live', and any selected odds will be backed or layed when clicked. Thorough testing in Demo mode is strongly recommended.

Cymatic-Dutch-v1.xlsm


Cheers
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Re: Dutching

Postby Gavin » Mon Jul 20, 2015 11:41 pm

Very good work adenlark.

I've made another version to make it easy to choose a target profit amount (what you win if any of the horses you've backed actually wins the race).

I expect some folks will want other options too, such as target exposure (what you lose it none of the horses you have backed actually wins the race).

I have also converted some of the check boxes into radio buttons (so that only one option can be selected).

I'm not sure if there is a more elegant way of designing the target profit aspect, but I used a model in which it tests the profit with a standard 'basis' value, so that it can adjust it to be some multiple of that for getting the actual basis value that is needed for the target profit calculations.

I've also added a column to show the profit or loss on that would entail on each selection. There are also several hidden columns that do intermediary calculations behind the scenes.

I must state very clearly that I have done nothing for the LAY side of things. All of the features that I have added are just for dutching using BACK bets.

Please use in demo mode only.

Kind regards,

Gavin
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Re: Dutching

Postby adenlark » Tue Jul 21, 2015 12:11 pm

Thanks Gavin,

My maths is a bit weak, so I decided not to attempt any profit/loss calculations in the sheet. I'll study the columns you've added and see if I can get my head around it. The radio buttons are a good idea, a cleaner and safer option than check boxes. A really useful update, thank you!

I sometimes use custom buttons rather than checkboxes in my workbooks. It looks cleaner, but I couldn't figure out how to write a macro that toggles a cell value between TRUE and FALSE (or a user-defined value). The solution was so simple: write an if statement on a single line, not an If/End if statement. Another D'oh! moment...
NB: An ActiveX bug in some versions of Excel can cause some content to stop working. Having trashed a few perfectly good workbooks because of this, I only use Form Controls, or I create my own custom buttons.

For users and Excel novices who want to replace checkboxes with buttons, I've attached a sample. I've inserted a rectangle from the Insert > Shapes menu. Transparency is set to 99% so that the cells under it are visible (Right click > Format Shape). Developer > View Code to view the VBA code used.

Cheers

adenlark

Custom Toggle Button.xlsm
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Re: Dutching

Postby Bozu » Fri Aug 28, 2015 8:05 am

Gavin wrote:Very good work adenlark.

I've made another version to make it easy to choose a target profit amount (what you win if any of the horses you've backed actually wins the race).

I expect some folks will want other options too, such as target exposure (what you lose it none of the horses you have backed actually wins the race).

I have also converted some of the check boxes into radio buttons (so that only one option can be selected).

I'm not sure if there is a more elegant way of designing the target profit aspect, but I used a model in which it tests the profit with a standard 'basis' value, so that it can adjust it to be some multiple of that for getting the actual basis value that is needed for the target profit calculations.

I've also added a column to show the profit or loss on that would entail on each selection. There are also several hidden columns that do intermediary calculations behind the scenes.

I must state very clearly that I have done nothing for the LAY side of things. All of the features that I have added are just for dutching using BACK bets.

Please use in demo mode only.

Kind regards,

Gavin


Good work from Gavin & Adenlark!

I'm having some success with Lay Dutching with the spreadsheet, trading out with a loss if the race in question is going against me.

For me it's about being selective in the race market, especially if there is a weak favourite worth adding to the list. This applies to handicaps and non-handicaps.

Thanks once again.

Regards
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Re: Dutching

Postby bamthwok » Tue Sep 01, 2015 6:26 pm

Hi,

Many years ago (that was in 2007 :shock: ), I've written a spreadsheet that calculates the stake for individual profit target in lay dutching. I like lay dutching because a "reverse lay dutch" usually give the better profit than a back dutch.

So I have the math to calculate adjustable stakes / profits and liabilities but I can't amend the existing dutching spreadsheet by myself. I don't have enough background knowledge about the design of it.

If I find a volunteer who is interested to develop the existing spreadsheet further to include lay dutching then I'm interested to work on this project and make it available to the community. But please, no time pressure....

Basically I can contribute with the math logic but I need someone who can implement it to the spreadsheet.

Anyone???

Cheers,
bamthwok
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Re: Dutching

Postby Bozu » Tue Sep 01, 2015 9:29 pm

bamthwok wrote:Hi,

Many years ago (that was in 2007 :shock: ), I've written a spreadsheet that calculates the stake for individual profit target in lay dutching. I like lay dutching because a "reverse lay dutch" usually give the better profit than a back dutch.

So I have the math to calculate adjustable stakes / profits and liabilities but I can't amend the existing dutching spreadsheet by myself. I don't have enough background knowledge about the design of it.

If I find a volunteer who is interested to develop the existing spreadsheet further to include lay dutching then I'm interested to work on this project and make it available to the community. But please, no time pressure....

Basically I can contribute with the math logic but I need someone who can implement it to the spreadsheet.

Anyone???

Cheers,
bamthwok


Hi bamthwork,

My excel knowledge is very basic. I can open and use a formatted/formulae driven work book and run it through Cymatic, but unable to design/create one, let alone do the maths!

The one Gavin has uploaded earlier in the thread works well and places the bets superbly well on betfair. Great work there!

I have a manual mutlicalc lay dutch spreadsheet you can use. I aquired it from another forum and may be a starting point.

Hope it helps.

Regards
Bozu

multilaycalc.xls
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Re: Dutching

Postby bamthwok » Wed Sep 02, 2015 11:17 am

Thanks Bozu,

I think it is easier to develop the existing dutching spreadsheet.

Let's see....

Cheers,
bamthwok
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Re: Dutching

Postby camelanton » Fri Sep 04, 2015 7:58 am

Hi Gavin.
I think there is some logic mistake in Cymatic-Dutch-v2 (to specified profit target).xlsm.
When the market book is less 100% there is a perfect moment to back all horses and have some profit.
If to back horses there is all right.

Image


But when i lay, when the market book is more then 100%, there is some mistake in calculations.

Image

please give some basic information about the calculation of Basic Value in M6 cell and how is it possible to fix it.
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Re: Dutching

Postby Gavin » Fri Sep 04, 2015 8:09 am

Yes I seem to recall that dutching (backing) calculators cannot be used when the book % is under 100%.

This spreadsheet has not been finished being designed for laying (bookmaking). The formulae only work for backing (to a profit target). I am intending to do that work in the future, unless someone else's does it first.

Kind regards,
Gavin
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